EnferReine.8043's Content - Page 5 (2024)

@Armen.1483 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:

I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.Well and you also said that you have trouble clearing siren's reef. For me it translates into: your comp doesn't work well.The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.I am not quite sure if those numbers say anything important or if I could relate them to anything. This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though. Normally killing cpt crowe shouldn't take more than a minute, if you beat her under a minute your dps is fine. But it is not only about dps. See when I say you should change fb to power DH is because of the DH's elite skill and his greatsword's ability to pull mobs to boss (so you clear em fast), and condi scourge (which is a joke in fractals) should go power reaper (which is one of the best if not the best dps in normal t4s) AND reaper got "rise" ability that will bump up your suriviability here by a lot. "Rise" is literally created for this encounter. The thing with firebrand using tome 2 to bump tempest's healing is just roleplaying and will complicate the thing for no reason imo, that same skill could be better used for regular condicleansing if ppl fall into the water much.Again if I stop being a perfectionnist and stop trying to give advice on utility and gameplay. You can ignore everything that I said it will not change things drasticly (I still highly recommend you do those), BUT I still gotta say that the condi scourge in your team is hurting my eyes =) I am pretty sure he is the main force that is dragging you down. Condi scourge there is a dead weight that you are carrying and a fractal that is a liiiiiiil bit more difficult than average becomes annoying because of that.

When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.> @Armen.1483 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:

When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.I am pretty sure everyone is welcome anywhere if he/she knows his stuff. I have never been kicked from any pug group while playing offmeta. Maybe I am just lucky, but I guess if you know your thing nobody will tell you anything.

The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.

I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.If you don't have any trouble, what is the problem then ? It just proves that Siren's Reef is not an extremely hard fractal. You say you don't have any troubles now.. strange.. I am missing something maybe.

It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.

make your own group if you are not welcome. but again, my experience is quite different from yours I guess.This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.hmm.. Apart from cms sometimes (very rarely) I don't see often toxicity in normal fractals.And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

This is why I answered your post !

Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.So I want an argument here: what do you mean by saying "poor design" ? If the platform was bigger, the only 3 mechanics (pushing tornadoes, the green circle and the red circle) would be completely useless, and it would make this fractal something like the 1st miniboss in "molten boss" fractal.The arena is small for a reason: it is the core mechanic of that bossfight. Asking to make it bigger is the same as asking Mickey Mouse be a crocodile. It makes no sense.

And in the end I don't get the rant. You said that you have no trouble clearing now, so what's the problem ? If you don't like the fractal it is your personal preference. You can't say it has objectively poor design. It has a very good design in fact. Actually it is one of the best bossfights in gw2 in terms of mechanics.

When you can have people say in this post that CM's, which are the challenge mode versions of fractals still feel like they have less visual clutter and crap spam compared this fractal, it says a lot.

When I did Shattered Observatory CM for the first time, I had an easier time dealing with everything in that. Siren's Reef just does a bad job at giving the player space, I feel like it replicates the stress I feel when put in an enclosed space for too long.There is no excuse for a small platform filled to the brim with that many chunky AOE's. That's really the major issue.The size of the AOEs and all the mobs on the smallest fighting space I've seen in some time, it just feels awful to experience.I can look forward to nearly every other fractal, usually the only time I groan is when I get certain instabilities matched up with a certain fractal.Although I'll be fair and say I also passionately dislike the newer Aquatic Ruins boss fight as well.

I can't really point out another fractal that really suffers from this because there isn't.

But I will point out a story example:You are on the epic airship mission and you are flying through the sky.Hmm, my character seems a bit jittery hmm weird.And, oh oh dear lord I just fell through the airship.... Why the hell is this happening?Oh there is a waypoint! I'll teleport back to it.

This was my genuine experience with the story mission. I fell through the ship many times and had to use the waypoint to avoid falling into the void and dying multiple times.

The waypoint doesn't really help the core issue, it is just a way around a problem that shouldn't really exist in the first place.Having to have all these rules in place of how to deal with every little thing is the waypoint that really should have to exist in the first place.The whole point of GW2 was to create a game with so much build freedom, going back towards holy trinity behaviour is one thing, but having to be specific classes in order to succeed makes things really toxic and frustrating.

Or what about in the actual Arah Dungeon and you fight Giga Lupi.By default people pretty much want a reflect to deal with him. That shouldn't really have to be a thing to melt his health bar away and keep your team significantly more alive, but it is.

These things to me scream poor design, just because there was a way around it, doesn't mean it made for good design choices.Good design generally makes more people happy than it does frustrated, even if that thing is hard.

@Armen.1483 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:

I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.Well and you also said that you have trouble clearing siren's reef. For me it translates into: your comp doesn't work well.The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.I am not quite sure if those numbers say anything important or if I could relate them to anything. This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though. Normally killing cpt crowe shouldn't take more than a minute, if you beat her under a minute your dps is fine. But it is not only about dps. See when I say you should change fb to power DH is because of the DH's elite skill and his greatsword's ability to pull mobs to boss (so you clear em fast), and condi scourge (which is a joke in fractals) should go power reaper (which is one of the best if not the best dps in normal t4s) AND reaper got "rise" ability that will bump up your suriviability here by a lot. "Rise" is literally created for this encounter. The thing with firebrand using tome 2 to bump tempest's healing is just roleplaying and will complicate the thing for no reason imo, that same skill could be better used for regular condicleansing if ppl fall into the water much.Again if I stop being a perfectionnist and stop trying to give advice on utility and gameplay. You can ignore everything that I said it will not change things drasticly (I still highly recommend you do those), BUT I still gotta say that the condi scourge in your team is hurting my eyes =) I am pretty sure he is the main force that is dragging you down. Condi scourge there is a dead weight that you are carrying and a fractal that is a liiiiiiil bit more difficult than average becomes annoying because of that.

When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.

@Armen.1483 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:I play tempest healer, which has helped in general across all the fractals because of certain instabilities because the auras are really useful.We had a chrono main, who would take both the quickness and alacrity wells, because I would use sandsquall to help them keep up on both instead of them taking mimic and specializing in one.We had a condi firebrand, who would switch to their healing book whenever I asked or they felt like we needed the F2-5 skill to increase healing received.Then we had a power weaver/tempest, they would switch based on what they felt like playing or enjoyed best.And we would either get our friend who also either played condi firebrand or condi necro, or we would grab a pug.

We had enough between the first 3 players to cover everything that people said get gud about this fractal.We weren't wiping or anything, but we all still collectively sighed about this fractal every single time.Just because we had a build between us that made this just fine to do, doesn't mean we think it's a good fractal.

I stand by it, the design is still absolutely horrible.Maybe. Just maybe it is not the design that is terrible. Maybe it is your teamcomp. I agree with you that it is unfun that we can't viably play anything we want anywhere. But it is not fractal's problem. It is a much deeper problem. Many answered very well here.

I would suggest instead of asking devs to adapt fractals for you, you could instead adapt yourself to fractals.

Having said that, even if playing Meta is the optimal way, it is not at all the only way. It doesn't mean that you should run to tier4 fractals with just random builds and hope to beat those. It would be no fun. BUT you can run any fractals and the same CMs with non meta groups. Your group however is very badly organized I must say. If you went DPS tempest, chrono went dps, firebrand went heal, and scourge went power reaper it would be way more optimised. Or Heal tempest, support chrono, firebrand swaps to DH and goes power, and the rest fiilled with any POWER (not condi) dps. Still offmeta, still not very optimised, but would much better than your current setups and you could even do CMs with those with no problems. You have to adapt a lil bit if you wanna succeed and it is also fun and refreshing to play something different every once in a while.In the end if you absolutely don't wanna change your builds and team comp, it is your fault not fractal's design. In that case you are not playing fractals, you are just roleplaying. If you still absoleutely wanna stick to your playstiles... Well there is tier 3 for you.

I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.

The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.

This comp is actually really good, the issue is that it requires even more team work and communication, because I need the FB to use the healing book for one ability when things are just a tad too much, and we rotate out our reflects etc.

This has been our most successful team comp and it has been really good.

Only catch is, that one of them has gone back to school and another work which means our schedules no longer align midweek to do the fractals and these classes aren't what people LFG for. I know I could heal pugs, but that doesn't mean they want me in the group, etc.

I am not asking for the fractals to be catered to me, I am asking them to make it better for all classes to have more of a place by putting in mechanics for people to do rather than for them to use a class to just ignore.

I am asking them to not fill a small space with a huge amount of clutter.(Which considering we have people in the world who may have visual impairment or difficulty with certain movements very rapidly or with precision, having a larger platform would be really helpful. I don't think it is too much to ask to give a little more room to move.

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:Can I complete with a decent group?Yeah sure I can, but compared to other fractals it is just really frustrating to go through and can really be one that makes or breaks a group that is just your average T4 fractal group as opposed to a "We need this this and this, don't have it don't join" sort of thing.

The smaller platform size compared to other fights, combined with so many different AOE types and all those diggity dang mobs pushing you and not a real way or mechanic type to prevent certain things just really makes for the worst fractal boss fight I have experienced.

Bring Forth The Tempest, seems like the perfect triggering line for unlocking the stun bar and preventing a few series series of strong gusts.

Having both the damaging AOE drop and the shark to share, while those are fine, with all the other AOE clutter on this stage, it often makes for a confusing time when you add the adds that you have to deal with, or suffer. There is just so much visual clutter going on with the tempest, the cone, the condition bomb, the shark, the enemies regular aoe attacks. It's christmas light vomit on my eye balls. The amount of times someone is running away with the green simply because there is just too much going on, too much visual clutter all in a very small space. Not to mention your team dealing damage and their AOE effects to add to that vomit of light.

I would like to see more love given to the condition bomb as a mechanic of dealing with the mobs, drop it on the ramps when you have it, and it will kill mobs while it exists there.

I know there is going to be a lot of:"Git Gud" type responses, and as I said it's not that I can't get a group to get through it. I do get through it well enough.But the experience feels unenjoyable, stressful because there is no way to prevent certain aspects and just the all around confusion with the visual clutter in a small space is so much.

I can't think of many fighting spaces as small as the ship that have that same level of clutter. Usually it's all well spaced out, there are few AOE's happening at once but letting them happen or not working around them properly can be catastrophic (eg. The first fight in The Shattered Observatory with the orbs that you have to hit away or your whole team gets knocked back and potentially knocked off due to the size of it's explosion when dead centre)

I am not saying remove what's there, just rework some of it for different purposes.

What do you guys think?What would improve the experience for you?Etc

Are you just trying to lol dps the boss without dealing with adds? In t4 is it not reasonable to just kill the adds? On lower levels it's actually a really easy fight if adds are down. The adds are intended to be killed imo. It's fine if you juke with profession mechanics (reflects or aoe), but just fyi, there may be a more fool proof way. Every time i've done this fractal people look at me like i'm an alien when i say we should do this, but when they listen we usually down it just fine.

No, we are not just "LOL DPSING"Since corona had forced a lot of people to stay home, I managed to run fractals with a full group or near full group (which likely will not be possible any longer). And we usually were all in voice comms.

I play tempest healer, which has helped in general across all the fractals because of certain instabilities because the auras are really useful.We had a chrono main, who would take both the quickness and alacrity wells, because I would use sandsquall to help them keep up on both instead of them taking mimic and specializing in one.We had a condi firebrand, who would switch to their healing book whenever I asked or they felt like we needed the F2-5 skill to increase healing received.Then we had a power weaver/tempest, they would switch based on what they felt like playing or enjoyed best.And we would either get our friend who also either played condi firebrand or condi necro, or we would grab a pug.

We had enough between the first 3 players to cover everything that people said get gud about this fractal.We weren't wiping or anything, but we all still collectively sighed about this fractal every single time.Just because we had a build between us that made this just fine to do, doesn't mean we think it's a good fractal.

I stand by it, the design is still absolutely horrible.Your regular tier 4's should not make you feel like you need to ask for the same classes over and over again.HB, AlacR and DPS.But more than that, no one has anything to say about all the AOE clutter both in their ability and the visual mess all on a small space beyond "it's just challenging, get gud"Sorry, that isn't really a good enough excuse as to why it should stay like that.

As someone else mentioned:

@Clyan.1593 said:With cms groups you just vaporize her. However visually its really offputting. So much going on. Trashmobs, boss herself, orange telegraphing for blowing lines, her huge stun, the shark circle + the green circle, and all of that on a tiny space. Even the fractal cm bosses are visually better.

The CM version of the Virastraa fight is filled with so much extra stuff and yet still it feels so much better than this fractal's boss fight simply because the space to work with is better. The only way you could warrant having all of that clutter is if the platform was bigger.

@MKJO.8970 said:Hello,

If you are welcoming Danes, then I would love to join.

I am mainly playing PVE. Constantly been working on legendary weps. I just started on the back item - I am therefore fairly new to fractals.

I am ofcause going to join you on the Raids aswell! I have been looking for rookies in a while, but without any success.

Kind regards, Jelloz

We welcome anyone, only time tells if you will enjoy it with us or not, so please feel free to come!

Before we let people into the raids, we do like to see where they are at and what we can do to help improve with as little changes as possible to them.

We don't force anyone to change, we merely make suggestions.

But anyway, look forward to seeing you about, sending an invite your way!

@Hydra.5967 said:Im interesting in joining a guild since getting back into gw2. Mostly been playing casually but definitely want to get more into it, and you seem pretty cool and I would definintely been interested in joining!

Well thanks for thinking I am pretty cool <3I'll send a guild invite your way! We would love to have another person join our little corner of the community!

@Kenyenke.4863 said:I'd like to join if theres space for a noob. :)

Always!There is space for anyone in this group.What is the point of having all this experience in a game, when there isn't also going to be the people to share that knowledge with! <3Invite coming your way!

@Tsallen.9420 said:I would like to join as well, journeying through Tyria quietly and alone is a slog.

Having support behind you is always a wonderful thing, especially when things can sometimes be really hard to tackle alone.We'd love to do our best to have your back!I'll send an invite your way!

Also to all of you lovely people, please do feel free to join our discord. You don't have to voice chat, it's just a good place for messages and it helps if you can at least sit in to hear for group activities! :)

@mancado.9760 said:The guild seems quite nice, but unfortunately my current server is Borlis Pass, meaning I wouldn't be able to do much with the PVP.

I am more of a PVE player anyway, I have a lvl 80 character that I had for years and I am returning now to the game, I feel quite a noob with the amount of changes and I would appreciate some help with some questions and so on.

I also like to have people to speak and play with and I am totally down with discord.

If you are still recruiting, let me know :)

We are definitely still recruiting!

We are predominantly PvE, sometimes we dabble in the PvP and WvW scenes as we have recently in our search for Fashion Wars.Server only matters for World Vs World anyway, and fortunately we are on a Medium population server which means if you ever are interested in that scene, the transfer is only 500 gems and we generally have people (myself included) who are usually willing to donate gold to convert into gems for that cost.

Welcome back to the game!Let me know if you would like an invite :)

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

@Perceptor.7189 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Perceptor.7189 said:Rocket turret attacks does not activate explosive temper and big boomer traits

Yep I agree. If theres anything engineer needs its consistency and less bugs

This is still a persisting issue.

The Rocket Turrets first attack applies the Explosive Temper, but after that initial shot it doesn't.Not even when you destroy the turret.And all of them are supposed to do an explosion.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Intrigued for sure. What are your thoughts on streamers in the guild that stream activities?

Ah I forgot about checking this!I kind of thought I would get in game messages MY BAD!

So, my thoughts on people streaming guild activities is that it is fine, but it likely depends on the individual.Just maybe let people know if you are streaming just so they can decide if they want to speak much or not, etc.

@Brindle.2789 said:Hello, fellow Aussie here. I'm thinking about getting back into GW2 and I'd like some help with what I'm needing to do etc. I'm mostly a pve player and have plenty of Living World left to explore. Hook me up if yee be keen and are still recruteeing?

Hey there! Good to see another Aussie about!Hopefully welcome back to the game, we are happy to help you get back into it!I'll send an invite your way, apologies for the delay!The discord link should be in the guild MOTD. But it's also in thsi post :)

@Raxnar.3184 said:Hi, I am Roy from India. I played Gw2 back when it first came out after that I was on break because of my studies. I have one character at lvl 80(thief) but I still think I am quite a newbie. I was hoping to find a guild which wasn't too serious but also quite regular just to have some fun playing with other people as it is very boring to play alone after a while. The description you gave about your guild got me interested. Can I join you guys?

You are more than welcome to join us!A lot of us are very casual and love to just hang out and learn and do stuff in the game!I will send and invite your way :)

I can't really tell you/understand your unhappiness with this because:

1. I don't use the build templates/gear templates
2. That's because before those were a thing, I resorted to having a whole different character for each significantly different build I was going to have based on gear (eg. healing tempest, condi tempest/weaver and power weaver). So basically for the same results as a gear and build template, I was paying anywhere between 600-800 gems per new significantly different build depending if they were on sale or not.

So personally to me, paying that much for templates doesn't seem that extreme. The only added benefit to my strategy is that I get to play fashion wars more and I don't have to take up inventory slots with extra gear.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't any ignoring and to be fair, this thread IS a speculative exercise so ...

See Also

NationStates • View topic - A Tale Of Two Crescents

It's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to believe that raids aren't successful in this game because of reasons rooted in how the content was offered and ultimately leading to financials. Don't be like others and blame Anet through some complicated web of their actions for attempting to commit corporate suicide ... that's nonsense.

I think it's much simpler than that; people didn't adopt GW2 for raids in the way Anet offered them. It just doesn't have the right player profile to support the raid content. If it did, we would have seen Anet maintain the raid release schedule.

• They were new.

• They offered unique items.

• Progress was blocked in obtaining max mastery level regardless of if you used them or not.

We are talking about over 2 years of successful implementation of content. Raids were not that new by then. Max level mastery was not required once fixed. Even then, there was/is a ton of very easy fights which allow players to get 1 kill. That does not reflect an overall interest in raids.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:For example, I was progress blocked for years. I only go my first raid kill last year and I only got the game just before HOT came out.I have over 5,899 hours in the game and I have been playing for 4 and a half years. Which means for 3-4 years I did not have a boss kill which meant I kept going back until I got lucky enough to have some guy get co*cky enough to prove you can take anything into a raid and anyone can pass and it isn't intimidating and that I should do them.

Be honest:How much effort did you put in for actually getting into raids or playing the content? This sounds to me more as though you were not interested in the content and join a run by accident. That is perfectly fine, but please don't use this as an argument for difficult access. Unless you spent 4 years trying to get into raids, at which point I would try to understand what the limiting factors were in order to recommend how to approach this.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:That same guy proved he was biased toward me because he made my boyfriend redo his entire dare devil build and make him hit 30k consistently on the training golem before taking him to get his done.

I can't speak as to the "guy" and I certainly did not put such harsh restrictions on new players (though I always recommend players practice, and recommend easy classes), hitting 30k on a Daredevil on the golem is not really difficult or an amazing feat requirement. Half of that is pure auto attack, and the other half is using 2-3 skills every few seconds without even requiring weapon swapping. So while I disagree that such a requirement needs to be put up for training runs, I can't comment on why or how this transpired.

I would recommend though not to judge thousands of players based on a singular event.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:After all this, I haven't really been back into a raid since. I got my masteries and now I don't have a group to do it with because you can't just join anyone. I have made the builds to hit reasonable DPS, etc. but I still fear the community and nothing in there is worth dealing with the community that is there. I don't even like to join fractals full of jargon and BS that excludes people. I just want to get them done, I don't need a kitten speed run.

Again, honest question:How much have you actually tried finding a guild or getting into one? Once again, perfectly fine to not want to join or find other people to play with, but please be critical enough of what the actual reasons are. If 1 bad experience is all it takes for you to never want to raid, I'd question your actual desire to play this content, which directly means you are not the target audience, which is fine.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:Basically:The raiding community is shrinking.And people don't want to join it to keep it alive because the are shamed/feared out of it and the only way to become part of it is through training groups that force you to become as cookie cutter as everyone else.

Find better training groups.

An update to my previous response to you.Around this time last week, our group of people we are taking through for fun finally got our kill on Cairn and we proceeded to get through Mursaat Overseer and we had like a handful of our DPS that were doing very little because they are new. After monitoring them in raids, I have already taken one person aside and helped them improve on what they already had. They were a viper's scrapper, but they had taken a power trait line someone else had told them too, etc. But they told me they enjoyed condi but the Snowcrows build not only seemed complex, but really boring just changing between kits over and over and over. So I tried my best to make them a build they were more comfortable and I managed to raise their DPS by from 5-8k to 15-18k and they said they actually enjoyed the build I had given them.

Most places are spending all this time trying optimize you to the communities standards of builds.

My guild is making silly power point presentations of the raids to teach people what everything is as simply as we can and want to grow our guild mates to hit the bare minimum we need to get past raids, without forcing them into builds that aren't fun for them or they aren't comfortable with. Playing with my group has been the most fun I have had in GW2 raids, we are still garbage at them and learning but the screams and the hype because for the most part all of us are inexperienced was a highlight of our guild gathering on the weekend.

Seeing all these players who were not confident making it this far and just genuinely loving the experience, made me so happy they didn't go through what I went through in the early days, getting kicked out of groups that you had made, that they didn't end up feeling like they were carried, that they learned something new and that they were growing as players.

I stand by the fact the raid community needs to just chill out on all their build elitism, because honestly, you don't need all that much to do them. Knowing the mechanics really is pretty important, getting people to understand agony and to not get teleported, it was hilarious. But they all learned something and I am so happy for them.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:But dungeon content is old and the moved their focuses else where which stopped people from being interested, regardless of new blood joining.

Indeed. Just like they scrapped dungeons for fractals, they scrapped raids for strike missions. It's the same story all over again, when they want to redirect players towards their new content.

However, each strike uses bosses that inexperienced players have become familiar with throughout the story, so if they beat it in the story they get this confidence that "I did it once, I can do it again with a group of people."

The Icebrood Construct and the Fraenir of Jormag (the easiest ones) are the strike mission bosses that you fight in the story, the others are very much new.

There is also the Boneskinner, which while not story, it is something in the map that people fight, so again is one of those ones that becomes less intimidating to deal with.

I don't think that Raids were scrapped for Strikes however.

Dungeons were already old and for whatever reason when they tried to update the bosses, etc, they just kind of broke and didn't really update. They have stun bars but you can still stun past it and such. It just seems like dungeons were too set in their way that when they tried to update it, it broke things here and there.

It's like a friend of mine pointed out, WoW tried to remove the bag system but it was ingrained in WoW's design that things just didn't work and it couldn't be done.

It seems to me like dungeons suffered the same problem, they were designed so early and rigidly that to properly update the content, they would have needed to remake it. So why spend so much time focusing on it and re-implementing the exact same thing just updated, when they could focus their efforts toward making end game content in a similar design to dungeons that allowed progression for max level players.

The dungeons still have value for leveling but reworking them to fit the games new direction just didn't seem worth the effort.

Raids aren't in that same position as dungeons, they can continue to implement new mechanics, etc. and keep them up to date with the game's direction, so why haven't they?You can't say "it's to push people toward strikes", because if strikes is just supposed to end up being as hard as raids, then at the end of the day it is pretty much is a raid and then all of this content could have been raids.

At this stage Strikes are too easy to be raids. But the most recent one is harder than the ones before it.

I don't think Raids are scrapped and left in the dust like dungeons.I think Strikes are meant to be the equivalent of the easy mode raids people asked for, they are meant to be the 10 man practice progression towards real raids.

I think if Strikes at their maximum difficulty push enough people into raiding, they can justify spending more resources on making more.

There needs to be some way of attracting players who have never done it before. There are so many who don't have the confidence to get there, this is the approach they are taking to attract the new blood they are hoping for.

If people are leaving and there is no new blood coming in, there isn't going to be a point in continuing to release more content. I want more raids to be released, I still haven't completed a wing of anything yet, I still want there to be more of them because raiding is a cool end game thing. But I can't expect Anet to release more if more raid players are leaving than there are joining.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't any ignoring and to be fair, this thread IS a speculative exercise so ...

It's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to believe that raids aren't successful in this game because of reasons rooted in how the content was offered and ultimately leading to financials. Don't be like others and blame Anet through some complicated web of their actions for attempting to commit corporate suicide ... that's nonsense.

I think it's much simpler than that; people didn't adopt GW2 for raids in the way Anet offered them. It just doesn't have the right player profile to support the raid content. If it did, we would have seen Anet maintain the raid release schedule.

• They were new.

• They offered unique items.

• Progress was blocked in obtaining max mastery level regardless of if you used them or not.

We are talking about over 2 years of successful implementation of content. Raids were not that new by then. Max level mastery was not required once fixed. Even then, there was/is a ton of very easy fights which allow players to get 1 kill. That does not reflect an overall interest in raids.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:For example, I was progress blocked for years. I only go my first raid kill last year and I only got the game just before HOT came out.I have over 5,899 hours in the game and I have been playing for 4 and a half years. Which means for 3-4 years I did not have a boss kill which meant I kept going back until I got lucky enough to have some guy get co*cky enough to prove you can take anything into a raid and anyone can pass and it isn't intimidating and that I should do them.

Be honest:How much effort did you put in for actually getting into raids or playing the content? This sounds to me more as though you were not interested in the content and join a run by accident. That is perfectly fine, but please don't use this as an argument for difficult access. Unless you spent 4 years trying to get into raids, at which point I would try to understand what the limiting factors were in order to recommend how to approach this.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:That same guy proved he was biased toward me because he made my boyfriend redo his entire dare devil build and make him hit 30k consistently on the training golem before taking him to get his done.

I can't speak as to the "guy" and I certainly did not put such harsh restrictions on new players (though I always recommend players practice, and recommend easy classes), hitting 30k on a Daredevil on the golem is not really difficult or an amaing feat requirement. Half of that is pure auto attack, and the other half is using 2-3 skills every few seconds without even requiring weapon swapping. So while I disagree that such a requirement needs to be put up for training runs, I can't comment on why or how this transpired.

I would recommend though not to judge thousands of players based on a singular event.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:After all this, I haven't really been back into a raid since. I got my masteries and now I don't have a group to do it with because you can't just join anyone. I have made the builds to hit reasonable DPS, etc. but I still fear the community and nothing in there is worth dealing with the community that is there. I don't even like to join fractals full of jargon and BS that excludes people. I just want to get them done, I don't need a kitten speed run.

Again, honest question:How much have you actually tried finding a guild or getting into one? Once again, perfectly fine to not want to join or find other people to play with, but please be critical enough of what the actual reasons are. If 1 bad experience is all it takes for you to never want to raid, I'd question your actual desire to play this content, which directly means you are not the target audience, which is fine.

@hellsqueen.3045 said:Basically:The raiding community is shrinking.And people don't want to join it to keep it alive because the are shamed/feared out of it and the only way to become part of it is through training groups that force you to become as cookie cutter as everyone else.

Find better training groups.

As I mentioned before, I was carried.Not joined some sort of run by accident.But that experience with the player was a turn off because of his bad attitude.

Getting kicked out of groups I had made in my earlier days with my friends. Bad experience.

We later had a much nicer person join who was familiar with raids and he was much different but he openly admitted to being toxic at one point in his raiding time but he was done with that, he was going to play what he liked and not worry about others too much. He took me in on a druid of VG and we made it to some part with a platform or W/E and we probably could have stood to clear the entire wing but unfortunately my internet at the time was pretty terrible and gradually got worse and worse as we progressed through the wing so we had to give up after a while because I was dragging the team down by the second last boss or something.

This was a more positive raid experience for sure and rekindled my interest but I had too many technology based limitations at that point that I couldn't.But also I spoke to him about his time and why it made him so toxic, and he couldn't really explain why but it just did.

I tried when they first came out, obviously it was a disaster. No one knew what was happening, no one knew anything.Came back later, but possibly too late in the bandwagon, at a point where too many people already had their expectations and I didn't know the jargon or anything else.And unlike some people, when I see jargon that reminds me of "LEVEL 80 EXP ONLY EXPLORABLE" I knew better than to join.

This weekend my guild and I had a crack at Cairn because we now have 2 experienced raiders who are lovely people, big ole memers and we love them and they really want to get us to raid because they don't like playing with the raiding community either and don't really enjoy their raid guilds, they are bored because it's all business to them.

We went in with maybe half of us with raid ready builds and the rest of the guild we didn't really worry about too much because we wanted to just put them in the environment and see what happened to better see how we can help them grow. I don't want to just point them to snowcrows and make them follow some rotation. I get that it is effective but I am not going to turn them into little raid robots who end up hating their builds that we forced them to take. We might be using the information as a guide but we are doing our best to make it fit them and advising better ways to build that still reflects them.

Even with these suboptimal conditions, we nearly got the newbies their first boss kills. Obviously 30% is still a long way to go but it was actually a fun experience for them and they weren't scared because even our experienced player who was doing shard kiting was making mistakes but she would jokingly say "omg im throwing" and everyone would laugh and no one was miserable. This week we are helping people work on their builds before we try again next week. As I said, we don't care about the most optimal, we just want to see these players grow enough that we can do them at the bare minimum.

At the end of the day I would rather die a thousand times and learn at my own pace and see my little bits of growth, then be forced to just skip that learning and become the same cookie cutter build just grinding out raids because they are there.

I am still learning in this game every day, and I love that. I am still making mistakes and working on things. This game will be stale when I can't keep learning something new about everything I play.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:The raiding community is shrinking.

Like the dungeon community... abandoning content does that.

But dungeon content is old and many of them didn't update well and they moved their focuses else where and it made sense to which stopped people from being interested, regardless of new blood joining. The amount of times there are stun bars on the bosses in those dungeons and then stuns just flat out work on them so the bosses practically never attack. They tried to update the bosses to match the new direction of the game and it didn't work out well for them and perhaps they tried to make it work but the design of that instanced content was too ingrained that they were better off abandoning and leaving them as they were and creating new types of dungeons for the largest aspect of their community, the max level players got fractals and it caused them to need to continue to grow their level via agony.

The raiding community is newer content and it is still shrinking, you need fresh players in order to keep up enough participation in order to put resources toward it.But the players are leaving and there aren't enough new ones taking place to justify putting resources toward it.

I would say that is the whole point of Strikes. To get players into Raids, by somewhat building their confidence.

• Each Strike release is supposed to be harder than the last (like a fractal)
• Each Strike is supposed to progressively reach toward the idea of raid style content

However, each strike uses bosses that inexperienced players have become familiar with throughout the story, so if they beat it in the story they get this confidence that "I did it once, I can do it again with a group of people."By making them familiar, it makes players more comfortable and if they don't succeed, there might be a higher chances of them wanting to work harder to defeat it and improving because they want to defeat this familiar thing again.Not to mention, if a handful of these new players that have enjoyed strikes but avoided raids find out that maybe the last strike of the story or W/E is now almost as hard as a raid, they might be more confident to approach raiding content which could result in new players joining the mode and justifying putting time and resources into raids.

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:running back and forth for supply is the number one thing holding this mode back. who the hell wants to do that? also the bombers die too easily.

Actually, I don't hate that.

It's better than just "fight on point" "fight on point"

There are the supply objectives that can lead to fights, there are escorting and defending against the waves from that which can lead to fights, there are fights for the mist champs.

Conquest is boring.It only values this concept of "fight fight fight, git gud, git a build".

Stronghold is fun because even if you aren't the best player ever, it can still give you something to do and make you a valuable member of the team and build diversity can be even more important because of the variety of things you have to do. It is just far more welcoming and gives you moments of reprieve from just the flat out fight fight fight with other players.It is a perfect balance for a PvE player to enjoy a PvP mode and introduces them with interesting WvW content too.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't any ignoring and to be fair, this thread IS a speculative exercise so ...

It's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to believe that raids aren't successful in this game because of reasons rooted in how the content was offered and ultimately leading to financials. Don't be like others and blame Anet through some complicated web of their actions for attempting to commit corporate suicide ... that's nonsense.

I think it's much simpler than that; people didn't adopt GW2 for raids in the way Anet offered them. It just doesn't have the right player profile to support the raid content. If it did, we would have seen Anet maintain the raid release schedule.

Sure, but that still does not in any way explain why raids were very successful in the beginning.

You said it yourself, unless you have access to the correct data to backup your OPINION, you are runnikg on fumes.

• They were new.
• They offered unique items.
• Progress was blocked in obtaining max mastery level regardless of if you used them or not.

For example, I was progress blocked for years. I only go my first raid kill last year and I only got the game just before HOT came out.I have over 5,899 hours in the game and I have been playing for 4 and a half years. Which means for 3-4 years I did not have a boss kill which meant I kept going back until I got lucky enough to have some guy get co*cky enough to prove you can take anything into a raid and anyone can pass and it isn't intimidating and that I should do them.

That same guy proved he was biased toward me because he made my boyfriend redo his entire dare devil build and make him hit 30k consistently on the training golem before taking him to get his done.

After all this, I haven't really been back into a raid since. I got my masteries and now I don't have a group to do it with because you can't just join anyone. I have made the builds to hit reasonable DPS, etc. but I still fear the community and nothing in there is worth dealing with the community that is there. I don't even like to join fractals full of jargon and BS that excludes people. I just want to get them done, I don't need a goddamn speed run.

Basically:The raiding community is shrinking.And people don't want to join it to keep it alive because the are shamed/feared out of it and the only way to become part of it is through training groups that force you to become as cookie cutter as everyone else.

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:There are 4 tiers of difficulty. If you can't handle tier 4 do one of the lower tiers, git gud, or skip it for the day. Why have content with multiple difficulty tiers if people want the highest tier to be catered to people who are completely mechanically inept or are too close minded to swap some traits/utilities and try to coordinate a strategy with their group?

How can you strategize with a group when some people have severe limitations?

Not everyone is carrying whole other armor sets and weapons on them, let alone with just as much agony or stuff to move their agony or legendary armor to switch, not everyone has every character they have geared out so they can switch and optimize to the teeniest amount. And you could say "just craft ascendeds" and "just by the agony" but that implies they have enough money to do that in the first place.

For example, I only have 2 characters geared out right now for T4 and I am building up a third but I need ascended gear and I have only just started to pick up fractals again. Siren's Reef was garbage when I stopped and it's still garbage now simply because it doesn't feel welcoming to the builds you end up using in all other fractals. In other fractals I switch out stuff here and there, but to have to end up switching to a whole other character just to get the best tools I need to survive. Someone suggested using Renegade, well I don't have enough agony/ascended on them yet to do it, so I am still stuck as a druid for a support. Or I switch to a Dragonhunter which means losing a support which nobody wants to happen unless we have another.

This is a problem, no other T4 creates problems of exclusion to classes in the same way this one does. You can pass every other fractal with the basic ideas of team composition, but not this fractal. It shouldn't be this precise on any tier other than CM. Challenge mode, you sign up for things to be harder to the point taking specific builds down to the tiniest optimization is what you want to do. And it would make sense their because all the best players who are geared up so well are doing those.

@"Drennon.7190" said:Core GW2 was an amazing experience. Explore the world, complete hearts/events that pop up and follow the store.However, these expansions are not enjoyable. Instead of following along and enjoying the maps/stories, there are tedious systems in place that suck the enjoyment out of it.Masteries do not feel good. See that mastery point up there? Sorry, you need to unlock other master points first so that you can level a different master to get up the that point that's right in front of you.Mob density is insane. In the expansions, you can no longer just walk around and enjoy the scenery without being bombarded.Jump puzzles for mastery points... I have difficulty believing that mastery points should be behind jump puzzles. Jump puzzles are more frustration than fun.

I completely disagree.While I love core tyria, if I was playing level 80 stuff in core tyria all the time, I would get bored because to put it simply, there is only a small range of 80 maps there and you will get bored eventually.

HoT was a difficulty spike for sure, but I freaking loved it when it dropped. But it was funny watching all these people with no idea how to play the game expect to faceroll everything and then get no where with it.I saw someone who level boosted their character and the equipped whatever they found that they thought was a rare item and put it on and thinking they would somehow be better. They were putting on yellows in a mix and match of stats. I told them they should have left on what their level boost came with because orange is the minimum best gear you need to do all content at level 80 and they told me they destroyed it and so I bought them new gear. That player would have gotten frustrated and left this game because they made poor decisions.

HoT was only "difficult" because too many players didn't improve their skills at the game. I still die there but I am also improving when there because it is the place I go after I level a character and pick my gear and go test how strong it is and what I need to improve on.

I also personally enjoy the mastery experience because there are so many ways to obtain the points themselves to spend the EXP on.Acting like they are only in jumping puzzles is really misleading of you. There are so many throughout the story you pick up and via achievements which many involve fighting, etc. If you are only going after the JP ones, well that is on you.And I like the mastery system, you learn to do something new via experience and then you spend points to learn it but it doesn't end up changing the maximum combat level, this is good because it means no matter where you go in the game, the maximum combat level remains the same as from core tyria, so someone late to the experience with their characters are able to jump on board and wouldn't be behind in levels, etc.They just need to earn side levels for abilities that only some are required to finish the story attached to them and to simply explore the area. There are some optional achievements that require you to have everything, but you could complete most of it without.

You don't need the HoT poision mastery instantly, you can get there over time, it gives you something to come back for. That isn't a bad thing.And it isn't hard to get to that point.

I have had zero issue with exploring either.Yes, they aggro from further away, but rather than just expecting to stop in your tracks in a level 80 zone that is meant to be end game content, maybe consider clearing out the location you like and want screens of before just doing it.

You act like taking screens anywhere has always been smooth and uninterrupted by enemies. That's not true.

@Dawdler.8521 said:You cant safely perform stomps in stealth. You can still take damage. For solo its irrelevant, for smallscale its a tactic that can be countered with AoE, for largescale well gg even getting close without being rolled by the zerg.

Perhaps, but performing a finisher should be dangerous.Stealth on a finisher completely negates that, but that also means there should be some reward to taking the risk of finishing someone off.

I know it is a FPS Battle Royale but if you use a finisher in that game, it refills your shields once the finisher ends. You took a risk and got a reward.

I feel like finishers should be like that.

Stealth does seem a bit cheesy on a finisher honestly.

@DoRi Silvia.4159 said:My thoughts/reason raids have low pop is because players aren't willing to learn.

Before even getting into a group (for first timers or ppl joining trainings) you should learn your class build from snowcrow, practice dps on the golem till you can get close to bench mark and also listen in discord.

The amount of players I come across in raids that have their own build with your own rotation being out dps'd by the druid is just cringe... its meant to be the hardest content in game and you want to accept the challenge then atleast prepare your self and not the 'oh I'm just gonna play what I want cos I can and face tank all mechanics' attitude. This is one of the issues I see alot. If you dont know mechanics and have joined training group JOIN discord and listen. Very frustrating when you get stuck on one simple mechanic that one person does not do and either downs or dies.

Raids are fun and challenging and definitely a learning curve jump from your average pve open world. BE PREPARED FOR IT.

You don't need snow crows to be good.

My group is only just starting to learn raiding and we nearly got our first boss kill even with the low DPS people who we are willing to teach and grow and not force them into snow crows builds that may not be comfortable with their playstyle, etc. My friend he's hitting for near 20k consistently on his own condi firebrand build and he's having a blast with it.

I have rebuilt my own character to with skills a friend of mine would prefer and not only did some things she like improve my build but I am out DPS-ing her because of technique and understanding of the game because for the most part she is still inexperienced and perfecting her gear with our advice, so teaching is important.

You don't need to be the same BS cookie cutter as snow crows just to be part of raids. You just need people willing to help you grow and making sure you are comfortable and you need people who will be okay with failure.

Our friend who is teaching us mechanics parts because they have the most experience even said playing today regardless of whether we killed the boss or not was more fun than they have had raiding in a long time because we were having fun and excited, regardless.

The raiding community stinks because too many people aren't there to just have fun with people, they are just there to get the kill because somehow that is so fun. At the end of the day, you have killed a lot of things before, it is going to get boring when everyone is the same cookie cutter snow crows build living up to a bunch of jargon in an LFG.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Sirens is one of my favorite fractals for two main reasons:

It prioritizes mechanics that alot of other end game doesn't emphasize much; condi cleanse/resistance is super strong. Enhanced movement speed ie. swiftness is very nice for not getting blown over. Aoe soft and hard cc to lock down mobs or pull them in to be cleaved down. Projectile defense shuts down lots of the trash mobs. Boon rip/corruption is also super strong even without no pain no gain. All these things tend to be kinda niche behind SMASH BREAKBAR and DPS actually get some heavy emphasis but they aren't all required. This leaves setting up builds as kind of a puzzle on what you want most. For instance on renegade do I want projectile defense and condi cleanse from ventari, aoe pulsing daze and high Life siphon from kalla, resistance boonrip and aoe pull from malyx, single Target damage and movement speed from shiro, or cleave and group stability from jalis? They are all good but good indifferent ways and what you want to take really depends on what the rest of your group can bring.

Which leads into reason 2 which is the bosses don't have a breakbar which you can just smash and 100->0 or 100 -> phase change before having to deal with any other mechanics. The cm fractals have become a joke even for average cm + t4 groups because the exposed debuff lasts too long and grants too large a damage boost, the bosses all get pushed to phasing before they can use any attacks at all sometimes. Sirens doesn't have those prolonged periods of free totally safe dps so you are constantly dealing with stuff keeping it more intense and interesting.

Tldr. Git Gud

There are still people out there who don't do CM's. You are talking about these spaces as if everyone is going to be optimized down to the tiniest portion in a game with a very large casual player base.

Some people only have 1 or 2 characters geared out because they don't have the ascended items to even begin gearing out multiple character slots just to switch characters every other fractal to get something perfect.

The break bar is still a mechanic that some people across the entire game, don't know what it does.You think they are equipped to handle some sort of complex nuances.

The break bar was a rewarding feature, especially for lower skilled players.Break Bar = Prevention for certain things that would kill them.

That's a good feature.

If it's such a good thing, make a CM that deals with these complex minor core mechanics because that is exactly the sort of thing a challenge mode should dabble in.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed.

That's true for all types of content, I'm not sure how (or why) it only applies to Raids. For example, is Drakkar a successful boss? Or it gets players running it because they need achievements there? Is Grothmar Valley populated because players love playing there, or because they are still missing their achievements there? Is

Insert any zone or content

popular because it requires repetition for achievements/rewards or because players love it?

Yeah, I am not arguing that.

However, enough people will still be going to those maps due to various other dailies and repetitive things (like ascended trinkets) they need there that people will keep doing it and that is just how it goes because the story keeps happening. There are pretty significant turn outs for story. I would say the development team does not judge the success on the maps but more on how many people are turning out for the next story and how many people are going through alts and completing said stories, etc.

How many people are doing that for raids?How many people after getting their masteries decided any of that experience was worth their time to:

• enjoy the content it produced?
• farm things they needed? (ascended armor, weapons, trinkets, etc)
• farm the achievements?

I know I have very few achievements through raids because other than the ones I happened to get on the few things I have participated in, I haven't bothered to even care for getting those ones, even though I hunt AP like moths fly to light. For me the struggle of getting to do raids, with people that won't make the experience fun for me isn't worth it.